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John Gillies is a senior advisor and former director of the Global Learning Group at FHI 360, a nonprofit consulting firm. He has worked in international development for 40 years, the last 25 of which has been focused on education and systems development. As the former director of the USAID EQUIP2 program on education policy, systems, and management, he has a long-standing interest in strategies for achieving and supporting system change. One of his publications for EQUIP2 was “The Power of Persistence”, a study of education reform in five countries over a 20-year period that tracked the political, institutional, and technical influences on sustainability and system change. He will frame the discussion with a paper providing a framework for sustainability and self-reliance that draws on prior work and emerging scholarship from USAID, RISE and other sources. For this discussion, he will draw on past work as well as the different pathways to systemic impact of a national scale program in Ghana and a small pilot in two states in Nigeria.